1. Nate

    Excellent post Nicole!

  2. Anonymous

    I am amazed that you have enough time to vomit all this up – and I don’t see what any of this has to do with reality – which is that libraries need cost effective working systems so they can keep running.

    How do you know ever detail of any communications that went on? you don’t – and you should know better than to post only one side of any story

    Why should a company give assets they just bought away to some trust that has done nothing but insult them?

    You are frazzled over the use of the word release? I pray for the day that is my biggest problem.

  3. In between my giggles at your pathetic attempt at a response I’ll type this short reply – if you want to be an ass about things then maybe you should use your real name so that we know who we’re talking to.

    Or maybe you should be aware that nothing is ever anonymous and your IP address tells me that you’re at PTFS posting this :) So glad that you can handle this in a mature manner.

  4. Okay, now that I’ve stopped laughing let’s get serious.

    I agree, libraries need cost effective systems, but choosing open source is about more than cost savings – in fact sometimes it’s not even a cost savings. Open source is about the community. It’s about people coming together and developing an application (and no I don’t mean that they all have to be developers – users have a huge part to play in the development process – they steer the development).

    Next, I never said I knew all – I gave my understanding and my opinion of events on my personal blog where I get to do just that.

    As for the trust, no matter how you view their actions, they are who the community has voted to hold the assets – they are the ones who gave Koha to the world in the first place as a gift – and they will look out for the interests of Koha better than any company ever can (and I said any company – not your company).

    Finally, the word “release” is the final straw – so not the big issue. The big issue is my frustration with being unable to teach others about something I believe in strongly, about something they have chosen to take part in and about something they say they believe in.

    My post was both my opinion and my attempt at educating others about the true nature of open source – which is at its very core – community.

  5. Amy De Groff

    I was actually at home when I posted my note – i regret that I did not use my name. I am frustrated and fatigued by all that has gone on, the PTFS IP is my fault as I did not lot off of their network before I posted .

    Nicole, you need to remember that no one has ill will here – but the lack fo clarity on all sides is not helping us move forward.

    I apologize. I’d like to see this be done.

  6. I think I was more than clear – 2000+ words of clear peppered with my emotion I admit, but still very clear including links to facts and other opinion pieces. All based on the pieces of information have come across my desk. Nothing in my post above is made up. There was an email message that was sent directly to me (and CCed to other vendors) asking me to send my news through Kelly in order to get it posted on koha.org. There was an email sent to the entire Koha list stating that we would have access to ‘parts’ of the koha.org site to edit it. There is the fact that the koha trademarks and domain name are still owned by PTFS with no sign of them being transferred to the committee that the community voted to hold the assets and there is a huge ad on the koha.org site for the Harley ‘Release’ with dwarfs the now ‘community’ releases which are in fact the ‘official’ releases. What in here is untrue or unclear?

  7. Vicki Teal Lovely

    I agree with Amy. Let’s put this to rest so that PTFS can do the work that they need to do. PTFS/LibLime is not the old LibLime. They are listening and they are trying to do the right thing. Maybe it’s not always done in the way that the community would like, but their efforts are genuine. PTFS/LibLime is my library consortium’s Koha support vendor. They are going to be doing a substantial amount of development work for us and we are impressed with what they have done in recent weeks. I have the utmost confidence that our development will be contributed to the official community Koha code base, as they just demonstrated by making Harley available. Isn’t that the most important thing? They have demonstrated that they want to work with the community. That is way more than we can say of the LibLime of two months ago. I’d like to see this be done too.

    And by the way, if there is anyone who understands open source in libraries, it is Amy. I received a lot of inspiration when I followed her blog on open source when I was first exploring it as an option for our libraries. Much as I did with your blog Nicole. And I thank both of you for that.

  8. I couldn’t agree more that the new PTFS/LibLime is not the old LibLime … but in answer to:

    “Isn’t that the most important thing?”

    the answer is a resounding no.

    Just like open source isn’t about affordable systems – it’s not solely about the code – so no that’s not the most important thing – the most important thing – as I keep saying – is the community.

    Of course great strides have been made and they have been recognized. My frustrations (and many others’) remain with the lack of understanding of the history of, the traditions of, and the nature of open source – which I repeat is in the community behind it.

  9. I agree, clarity would help all sides.

    So in the interest of clarity I would like to state that as of now, the trademark application filed on the 13th of February 2010 NZ time – 1 day after the sale of LibLime was called off, has still not been withdrawn.

    It was registered by Metavore DBA LibLime, and is now the property of PTFS.

    As a New Zealander of Maori descent, the fact that this application has not been withdrawn after it was bought to PTFS’ attention is a clear sign of ill will.

    I can think of no legitimate reason for PTFS, who have never done business in New Zealand, to hold a trademark on a word from our indigenous culture.

    I am more than willing to work with PTFS and I often communicate with developers working for PTFS … and I would count them as friends and dedicated members of the community. In fact until your ill tempered ad hominem attack on Nicole I would have counted you a friend too Amy.

    But the fact I respect and have genuine affection for some of the PTFS employees (might I add Sean seems like he will be a great asset to the project), this does not mean I excuse the behaviour of their employer.

    There is no doubt some mistakes have been made on both sides, and there is no doubt that progress has been made, but while the TM application remains I find it hard to believe there is goodwill.

    This is me speaking as Chris Cormack, member of Kai Tahu and Kati Mamoe Iwi and Koha developer, not in any other capacity.

  10. Oh, I realise I may not have made it clear, the trademark application is in New Zealand.

  11. Thanks Nicole for giving utterance to your feelings. The cosmic truth is that you’re deeply involved in the Koha project and that your involvement and sincerity is an asset which does matter much more than other so-called ‘Koha assets’. We need more avowed Koha fanatics like you!

  12. Scott Kushner

    Wow people, in the immortal words of that great Los Angeles philosopher, “Can’t we just all get along”….

    Do I have to remind anyone of this unpleasantness, when there was a power struggle to have another support vendor just try and toss it’s hat into the veritable koha ring? (I speak for myself here..)

    And I’m not looking to point fingers, or call anyone out on the carpet either, or chose sides, I’m just saying that there’s been enough misunderstandings, (as we’ll call them), on both sides…I think that I can say pretty confidently, that we all are trying to work towards the same goals here, aren’t we? I mean really, just what is the disconnect here, I’m trying to understand…

    This is where I think Kudos can step up and facilitate the conversation amongst ourselves because to me, it still seems like a great, big old vacuum out there, in terms of communication with each other….

  13. Scott, I had to edit your comment and put a link to the press release you were referring to instead of having the entire text here.

    Now, in response:

    I need to make it clear that I have nothing against another company joining the support ring – that is awesome. The disconnect comes from a open source community trying to explain open source to a previously proprietary vendor – it’s not just a new product to sell, it’s a new way of thinking and acting and working.

    As for KUDOS, that is only a US based group and as such won’t be able to speak for the entire worldwide Koha community. The only ones able to speak for the official Koha community are members of that community (KUDOS included – but not them alone).

    As for whether we’re working towards the same goal – I don’t know if we are or aren’t, I can only speak for myself and those I know and trust in the Koha Community.

  14. Hi Scott

    I’m sure we can all work together effectively. Speaking for myself, as I have mentioned above, there is at least one issue that if resolved would move the situation forward immensely. I don’t see anyone saying the situation is hopeless, I see people expressing displeasure at certain actions and I think that is healthy. Simmering discontent is much more dangerous than open discussion.


  15. It’s also important to note that since January 2009 there have been 6 new vendors that have joined the community – so it’s not that the community is banding together to try and hurt a new vendors – support vendors are necessary and provide the software with so much support!

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